Goodbye wave for Claustrophobopolis?

Friday 2nd March, 2007 | Skip to comments (62)

It seems that even some of the top QuakeWorld players are finally getting really sick of 1on1 matches on DM2. We know there are always some people who get orgasms while watching LocKtar or griffin doing their thing on DM2 but in real 1v1 competition this map really has had its best days. The possibility of extremely defensive play on DM2 makes the map just bad and uninteresting for the players and even for the spectators. We have been able to see perfect examples of DM2’s defensive games just recently in the Ownage 1v1 tournament. Some people may have found those games exciting but I think the majority feels like they were just boring, CS’ish and bad.

Last night Gamer gave away his point of view on this particular topic by saying the following after his match vs. Seese:

“I really don’t understand why this map is still being played in tournaments. Its fun for prac games but there is something wrong in a map where the first fragger is highly likely to win. There was this fight where both of us died, I spawned rl pack and Seese spawned near me. gg? After that it was sauna time. He tried to kill me but I just ran and ran… not very boring for me but boring for spectators I guess :). Just get rid of the map in the next league, there are many good custom maps like rf2 and skull.”

And Gamer is not the only one who feels this way about DM2. Locust, who is recently better known for uninstalling quake after losing against rock, also left a comment to Gamer’s match report saying that he completely, agrees with Gamer’s comment.

So if the miracle happens and the 1v1 league admins will have balls to remove DM2, what will happen? Most likely there is couple of way too old fashioned people who feel like the league admins have ruined whole QuakeWorld and therefore they quickly uninstall and quit. Then there’s the group of people who will celebrate the fact that DM2 is finally out of the way. But that’s not all, there’s one more group of people, which consists of players who are still very interested in QuakeWorld and willing to make it popular. These guys are the first ones to realise that if DM2 goes out, something new has to come in to take its legendary place but what the hell could that be? The map that wants to replace DM2 has to have that something unique, creative and fun that inspires players to learn and play it.

Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be many active and skilled QuakeWorld mapmakers around anymore so the map has to be something that’s already made. So, what we, the community got to offer? I’m about to show you couple of maps that I think may have what it takes to replace the oh so lovely DM2.

Skull – Skull hunt (download)

Not exactly a stranger to some people, especially for the players who participated in the Custom Map Duel Tournaments couple of years back in time. Skull is unique map and you can often find yourself in weird situations and fights, which makes the playing experience fresh and interesting. The map also has possibilities for various trick jumps to fool your opponent or gain access to other rooms very quickly. But it’s not the amount of trick jumps that make map good, it’s how the item layout, rooms and connection between the rooms all work together. Skull has various differently levels on which YA and MH lies at the bottom and RA at the top, with quick route to lower level.

skull3.jpg skull2.jpg skull1.jpg

Out of all DM2 replacing candidates, skull is surely one of the strongest. If you are wondering what is this all hype about do yourself a favour and browse to Challenge-TV’s website and search for skull demos. Mortuary, Gamer, rat and Milton are few names to look for when you want to see top-notch actions on skull.

Rf2 – Rusted Factory 2 (download)

Just like skull rf2 was used in the CMDT as well while it was still being in beta state. Rf2 reminds people of DM4, which isn’t surprising as the item layout is pretty same and getting spawn frags isn’t much harder. Rf2 offers a lot of action from vertical fighting to shaft battles, teleport dancing and crucial moments at the Red Armor. The good thing about rf2 is that there aren’t any boxy rooms with one entrance unlike on DM4 and that keeps the gameplay alive. The players whom shine on DM4 will most likely shine on rf2 as well but the defensive a.k.a CS players will face a problem that you can no longer camp safely at MH. Rf2 has balanced layout for armors and weapons and it has the feeling of playing fixed DM4. CMDT produced various good demos on this specific map and CH-TV is of course the place to find them.

rf2-3.jpg rf2-2.jpg rf2-1.jpg

Vdm3 – Zaku’s favourite map (download)

I personally just found out this map this week and I was really impressed how different it looks and plays. As it seemed so odd after first sight I thought it’s better to download some demo and see how it is meant to be played. Challenge-TV didn’t have much to offer this time but I was still able to download a demo where the map creator vio was playing against phrenic. After seeing the demo I went on public server just to jump around on the map but it didn’t take long until I was joined by ToT_error, who is of course a lot better player than me. I asked how many times he had played on this map and he said about 10 times. I just wanted to try the map so I hit the ready bind and tried my best. On first try I got beated pretty badly but on second try I got good start but it wasn’t quite enough but the game was definitely closer which proves the fact that lesser skilled people do really have better chances vs. the experienced on new maps.

vdm3-3.jpg vdm3-2.jpg vdm3-1.jpg

The map itself is quite small and in my opinion RA and YA are located too close to each other. A clever player knows how to abuse this by controlling the map at the top level of YA room. Good control of RA-YA leaves the down player very thin chances of gaining control because the down player is often left with only GA and RL/GL. Well timed, sneaky or rocket jump boosted attacks are the way to go but it’s easier said than to be done.

Slip – Slipstream (download)

Slip is a map that the American QuakeWorld community accepted to GGL’s 1on1 tournament but here in the Europe we barely see this map at all. Like vdm3, slip also has the problem that two major items are just seconds away from each other but on slip I would say it’s worse as these two major items are RA and MH. Player only needs RL, couple of seconds and he will be fully stacked. Of course we got clever players in the community and this is one of the maps on which you need some brain to over come the stacked player. With well-timed attacks from top level of map are one of the moves to consider but all this of course depends on the game, as all of them are a bit different. Compared to the already reviewed maps in my opinion Slip has the worst chances of making to the map pool, mainly because I feel like the item layout is not balanced but the some of the rooms are interesting to fight at, especially extremely vertical room in the middle of map.

slip3.jpg slip2.jpg slip1.jpg

Of course there is hundreds and hundreds of other custom deathmatch maps for QuakeWorld but I felt like one of these four maps might have what it takes to replace DM2. Some of you may think where the hell is rwild and my opinion on that is that does it make any sense to try to replace DM2 by another DM2? The decision is in the hands of the community and I really wish people would take more than couple of minutes to check out these maps. I guarantee all of them will give you more action packed matches than DM2 and that is one of the key elements to keep our tournaments interesting.

62 responses to “Goodbye wave for Claustrophobopolis?”

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Friday 2nd March, 2007

dm2 is a good map for 1on1, especially tournaments. People that suddenly realize they cant do anything against their opponent, because he uses defensive tactics are just worse and should loose. Duel is not only aim, it's also tactics (whoa?!), so if you like watching +forward games, watch other maps. kthxbai

Friday 2nd March, 2007

why replace only with aerowalk clones? lots of level (low ground to high ground), teleporters and stuff.
DM4 and DM2 are the opposites of eachother and DM6 is the perfect comrpomise. But 99% of the custom maps people want to introduce feel like aerowalk clones where you play full throttle for 10min and not a second shorter. No time for a breather and enemies can always come from 8 directions.
the maps we have today imo allow for strategic thikning during game. ztndm3 is one of the maps that allow for this, but somehow the more ppl learn to play this map, the more it shows how important spawns are. Also if you take away dm2 you also take the only map away without shaft, any thoughts on that?

Friday 2nd March, 2007

we were just talking about this at the forums

Åke Vader
Friday 2nd March, 2007

A well written piece of article, interesting to read. However, replacing DM2 with a map like RF2 feels weird. Of course a possible new map shouldn't be as CS as DM2 but it should be a sneaky map at least. The only such map left is DM6 where the tempo slows down sometimes.

Åke Vader
Friday 2nd March, 2007

I think i agree with Para after reading his comment. :)

Friday 2nd March, 2007

comment 2: add extra maps, dont remove dm2, and i bet people will keep picking it (despite being able to amuse their opponent with the knowledge of the new maps).

Friday 2nd March, 2007

i think the map pool is good the way it is and if the majority of the scene thinks otherwise id suggest a tournament of two map pools where you somehow use the existing tb3/tb5 and pick the same amount of "new kenya maps" and play both pools against the opponent and think a way of solving the possible decider thing

Friday 2nd March, 2007

just make a new tourney with new maps instead!
I hate playing dm2 because I sux on it but I believe that its a very good map for competition game

Friday 2nd March, 2007

lol defensive play is a part of qw and u can cs on more maps than dm2 and who the fuck wanna play a custom map that a noob have practise and yourself never seen it

Friday 2nd March, 2007

So nice to see that someone is still able to think deeply about QW and formulate his thoughts very clearly. Wish more people tried to do so.

Friday 2nd March, 2007

The article is good indeed, but thinking of taking away dm2 is some kind of tasteless joke :< kenya simply wont work (rf2 and skull were played in some older tournaments...)


Friday 2nd March, 2007

I still want to see DM2 being played, when it's played right/aggressive/tactical (reload/locktar/griffin) as in not-camping-in-lava-whatever, it's the most entertaining map to watch, at least for a newbie like me.

However. IF you decide to remove it, at least try to find another map where there's no shaft involved. No shaft just promotes awesome RL/GL shots, which is way more entertaining than a good shafter (but then again I'm the guy who rather sees a rail than a shaft :).

To Pullie:
Suit yourself if you think you're life is worth too much to spend 10 minutes walking through a map.

Friday 2nd March, 2007

btw and u dont wanna reload quit qw do you? :>

Friday 2nd March, 2007

sick of this.. dm2 is a good map, qw doesn't always have to be so FAST and furious, nice with one cs map with more tactics and aim then for example. dm4?

Friday 2nd March, 2007

On another note, your point is we need MORE action, cause that's what the community wants. Come again?
MORE action? I think there is plenty of action and especially in the 1on1 tournaments. I actually haven't done the research but I reckon DM2 was probably the decider in most games when it was TB3. Now we already have ztndm3 and aerowalk added. Are you not happy with those? You talk about dm2 as it was dominating QW in a negative way. If there is some luck factor on DM2 so be it. There are luckfactors on all maps and it's not so easy as you think to hold a 1 frag lead, even on dm2. We've seen several games where players tried to do so and lead switched more than once.

I think you can't mess with such solid maps - they are so deep rooted in QW. Theyhave their merits to stay in my oppinion and on top of that alot of history comes with them.

Some would say having aerowalk and ztndm3 so accepted (also among top players) is already a huge leap considering the conservative ways of quakeworld. And others might say it's One giant leap for qw players, but only small step for qw community.

aerowalk has that frantic, hectic, chaotic approach to the game where youare totally exhausted after playing. Ztndm3 has more tactical aspects when you are playing it feels like. Feels like dm6 in some ways. I think compliment each other pretty well. Taking out dm2 and replacing with a wannabe aerowalk map turns it all upside down. I agree - don't replace a dm2 map with another dm2 map. Don't replace it all.

Friday 2nd March, 2007

I agree with paradoks.

But something has to be done to at least help the newbies, in my opinion, because a lot of them just gives up after having to cope with these maps, at least that's how I've understood them.

Tutorials, whatever, something? I'd like to see a more esport-oriented approach (although I'm not the one who's following QW that well) again. There are games out there that gets a lot more attention, and has prices. Isn't it possible to bring at least some sort of professional gaming back to QW? Has anyone tried?

Friday 2nd March, 2007

it's a relevant issue but i don't believe that dm2 should be removed because it is cs'ish. the recent ownage matches only goes to prove what we already know about high level matches - first frags matter.

it matters a lot on dm2, HOWEVER in my opinion it isn't so much that they decide the game, but they DO decide who get's to play defense and who has to play offense.

now take the gamer-seese match. gamer is one of the best dm2 players around, though he may not realize it himself. sudo is also a prince on dm2 but his defensive skills are far superior too his offensive. when gamer got a lead sudo couldn't catch him because his offensive skills simply doesn't match gamers defensive skills.

gamer is the king of the runaround (few players actually master this - in theory - very simple approach to dm2) and sudo didn't manage to come up with any concrete ways of defeating this tactic ... simple as that. offensive play is more than just speed and aim, you have to break your opponents tactics and if he is running you have to device a way to stop him dead. IF sudo had managed to catch gamer earlier it would probably have been goodnight and goodbye - look at the ending. mentally, gamer had put in all his chips on evading - which he did like the grandmaster he is ;>

gamer might think he bored the spectators (i was enjoying myself!) and he might think that dm2 is bad. he probably thinks that anyone can play it the way he does - fact is that most players can't. almost everyone makes a mistake sometime and it's then and there that the player who is trailing needs to be, ready to execute the cs:er and devour the corpse.

still, a new map with dm2:ish design would be great, because even though aero and skull are ok and zntdm3 is pretty good - other custom maps that are playable seem to be pretty few and far (slip?? seriously, wtf?).

those maps that do exist are, as paradoks mentioned, arranged towards the aero-style (which i think is ok for one or two maps). now, what mapmakers don't seem to realize is that making rooms with a maximum of only one or two entrances is not EVIL. in fact, it's often the essence of good map-design to create routes and flow in just a few directions around the map. dm4 is very different from aero because there are more fixed positions (closed rooms). imo, that makes it better.

also making hiding places and campspots is not EVIL. dm6 becomes feasible only when you add the cs'ish MH-room, without it the map would be an unbalanced joke. and it proves that you don't have to balance out the armors and goodies as long as the design features defensive spots, sneaky ways around RA-camper and alike.

think about it, it's the exploits that makes a map "tourney". otherwise we'd all be playing nothing but povdmm4,arena and alike.

peace, and yes please more constructive debate and ideas!

Friday 2nd March, 2007

heh, didn't even read the last part with the "replacing dm2 with another dm2" and "more action packed" bs.

that IS however pure bullshit because i think a lot of both new and old players find qw rather action packed as it is - in fact one could argue that it is the amount of action and speed that has made qw so inaccessible for new players and that has made many older players fail to return to the game after being absent. for us "veterans" who aren't as young as we used to be anymore, cs'ish maps with tactical and positional considerations are in high demand and more maps like dm2 would cater to that.

also, claiming that the action aspect is most important in qw would lead you to conclude that reppie-razor prac-matches on aero is the bestest for spectators and that everyone is impressed by high-speed and tricks. well, some people might think it's impressive but i think that anyone who has played qw enough can replicate all the div0 tricks and still get knocked out in first brackets of duelmania or ownage.

why? because qw is neither speed or tricks nor just aim, it's the complete package of psychological and mental skills that are required and all good maps need to cater to that fact by creating a good resonance between the combatants. players should be able to "feel" their opponents intentions and move to counteract it, not just spam rockets, jump around and use killer lg. good matches always contain some cs and psychological combat.

"still" good article and interesting debate ;>

Friday 2nd March, 2007

oh, and btw ;>

if we are to be authoritive and look for high profile player's views - why not listen to seese's own thought's about the round? you find it on the ownage website but it ends revealingly enough:

"Well it could have gone different and I should have been prepared to the defensive positions he took but I really couldnt figure out exactly how to attack him and that was my downfall on dm2. Looking forward to the rematch."

Friday 2nd March, 2007

quakebrain got it!
So it's settled then, eh?!!

Friday 2nd March, 2007

yeah seese's comment was good.. shows the strategic features on dm2!

nice writen quakebrain

Friday 2nd March, 2007

I don't understand how anyone could think of removing dm2 from the map-pool of Quake. I doubt one loser's whine will make it disappear from the QW scene, it's not going to happen. You either love or hate DM2, but you must remember that map has been a part of QW for so long, and it's caused all the drama, with its unique spawns, with all the things it has, with the lack of shaft, with the balanced armors/megas, with all the CS.
Remember, everything works both ways, you lose 9-0, kill your opponent and get a 8 spawnfrag streak, everything's possible

Friday 2nd March, 2007

goqsane, was actually the winner that whined

Friday 2nd March, 2007

Please consider four.bsp as a 1on1 map as well. It has extremely high potential for good players because of it's fast-paced style like dm4!

Friday 2nd March, 2007

KovaaK said some brilliant things @ ESR:

Dm4 and dm6 are much better for tournament level play than dm2. On dm2, someone can get the first frag, then go hide in ya-box until the enemy comes... then tele out and run to ra-mega and wait there until the enemy comes... then repeat. Since the teleporters are one-way, and the enemy has to run through spam and at times hit extra buttons to continue the chase, the person running is uncatchable and has a major advantage by being able to spam non stop. It involves next to no skill to do this - why would anyone want to watch a match where this happens?

People who think that you can hide in dm4 mega all match are stupid. All you need to do to attack that is get yellow+red armors, then time an attack so that you don't get hit by spam in 1 position - as opposed to chasing your enemy through spam across the entire map on dm2. Even if you die in your attack, chances are good that you will be on the side of the map that enables you to get red armor and yellow armor again, so your opponent won't be able to regain control without a fight... in which case, you've gotten him to stop camping.

I don't even know how dm6 can be compared to dm2... there's really nothing "gay" that you can do if you are up by a frag and trying to win by hiding. The only thing you can do is gain control and hold it, which generally involves enough skill that no one can complain about it.

IMO, the big three dueling maps are dm4, dm6, and aerowalk. If you want two more maps to make it 5 for a tournament, toss in ztndm3q (yes, the q3-like version), and skull.


Friday 2nd March, 2007

bring back tb3 in next duelmaina/ownage whatever :|

Friday 2nd March, 2007

well that dm2 tactic is basically what IS used in tourney, only problem is that it actually doesn't work 100% as kovaak would have us think. in fact gamers variant of positioning so to keep two escape routes open at all times is a much more viable long-term method.

camping ra/mh is of course a good defensive position because of the tele exit behind you. when attacking here you need to block opponent from getting to tele, by spamming it or even better by rjumping up from the corridor and engaging in close combat directly - more or less negating the effect of opponents advantage if he goes into tele first. in any case, defender WILL have an advantage, naturally.

standing @ ya tele is also a good defensive move that few players seem to be able to tackle when faced with. only option is of course to sneak a rocket into tele-box and force opponent to go to through. if you presuppose that opponent will make tails for ra/mh you can easily cut him off by rjumping to low-rl. most campers won't go to ra/mh directly but will defend from high for a while. if opponent makes it to ra/mh it is often because of poor play from the attacker.

there is this kind of formula to all positional play in qw, this is no exception. however, few players practice dm2 enough to be as solid @ positional play here as they are in comparison on say dm6 and dm4.

other than this the only problem seems to be with spawns that can be a problem naturally. but take a good look at qw as a whole and you see that such is the way of life basically.

and for those who think camping on dm4 is all about MH :> fact is that you can easily take a random 10+ frag lead on dm4 and because of it end up owning the match because you can sit back and make opponent come to you - match ends 30-10 one time and 10-30 another, no big deal right?

main reason dm2 is singled out is because here the factors boil down to one or two frags, battles or spawns and then suddenly it all seems very unfair and so on and so on. however, same basic principle applies on most maps if not all.

if real skill wasn't involved in winning dm2 but just some cs and luck then we wouldn't be seeing the same players prevailing on dm2 time and time again, there would be a lot of random people taking cs-wins against top dm2-players. but it just doesn't happen.

and also, you can be gay on any map :> you just have to be good at being gay that's all. most people aren't - despite all the talk about cs-lamers - very good campers. exceptional defensive players (like gamer on dm2) can make it seem real easy, wether they are running circles on dm2, running the clock at RA on dm4 or actually winning dm6 at MH - defensive play is a skill and attacking a player who is camping is a positional play that you'd think players would be more familiar with by now.

i think one problem is that tourney play is rarely waged in pracs, thereby we see a totally different type of match on dm2 when it's non-tourney. it is for some reason considered impolite to camp in friendlies - hopefully people can become a bit more tolerant of players who prac to improve their positional and tactical play and not just their aim and speed.

until then i guess the skilled defensive players will still have an advantage in any tourney enviroment.

Friday 2nd March, 2007 =

Sry, but this news is just a joke like the news about sassa that he would join FS:P

Friday 2nd March, 2007

quakebrain makes a fine point here.
This is pretty common in basically all the other games I'm involved with; you actually search for duels on irc, and you use several words to describe what kind of duel you're looking for.

"1v1 dm2 high-skilled serious", perhaps this could be adapted, giving everyone the chance to practise DM2 among other maps more serious? Joining IOP3 and expecting a serious game on DM2 might be too much to ask sometimes, the same goes for any game kind of.

I hope I'm not making an ass of myself now. :>

Saturday 3rd March, 2007

not at all eml!

quakebrain, your correct on lots of points.

Dm2 is very tactical so is most maps!

why has dag always won dm2, lets look at qhlan games, he won vs griffin the decider twice at qhlan and again vs nabbe!

it cant be luck, its skills.
when he plays, he always plays for winning, praccs/off games and he gets used to serious gaming.

Dm2 is imo still a very good 1on1/2on2/4on4 map and should never be taken out of the maplist!

to defend is a skill, to attack is a skill!

do you guys remember ul vs reppie, think ul got 7 straight spawns at ya/tele but still lost the game?

Saturday 3rd March, 2007

just to conclude this all... if you hate dm2 and want to create your own 1on1 turnament, do it. I bet you gonna fail. we all do. Theres a lot of wine abpouyt the map, even in div0,not to menton div1. but its shit. you know it and you gonna playu the map all over agian. DM2 rox and stfu now

Saturday 3rd March, 2007

damn, i shouldnt post here while drunk :>

Saturday 3rd March, 2007

"do you guys remember ul vs reppie, think ul got 7 straight spawns at ya/tele but still lost the game?" If i recall correctly they both got almost the same amount of spawn kills at tele ng. So the 7 or so spawnfrag streak happened to both of the players.

Saturday 3rd March, 2007

this is awesome!
dm2 has for too long been in the duel-mappool
2on2 and 4on4 are great sure, but the movement is so limited in 1on1. The only way to get from one corner of the map to the other is ra-mega/tele which is easily spammed!
slip and rf2 are the best for duels to take over for dm2

Sunday 4th March, 2007

As the author of vdm3, I must say I'm flattered by this review :). From the very beginning I intended vdm3 to be a compo map, and spent 3-4 months planning the tactics, layout, flow of movement, timing and such. You will find that it kinda grows on you. For most it does, anyways. It sports a lot of tricks that are well integrated in the gameplay whilst not disturbing flow, an original concept and a new way of playing, and advanced tactics. The issue with ya/ra, I assure you, does not pose a problem with 2 equally skilled opponents, as both ya and mega can be snatched by the underdog quite easily by tele/redarrow. However, takeovers rarely come for free, even for the experienced player. You will find that health is scarse here, and the best way to turn the tables might be to snatch health and mega in order to wear the top dog down.
Also; A vdm3 mini-tourney took place a week ago, with phrenic, swi, seese, mawe, drunkard and myself. I'll up some of the demos to challenge-tv for you concideration. As I am a stupid ass and forgot to download all of them, I'll post the ones I kept.. the 2 top players, swi and mawe.

Sunday 4th March, 2007

Slip sucks don't use it.

Sunday 4th March, 2007

DM2 has to stay!

Sunday 4th March, 2007

Demos of phrenic vs swi has been posted on now.. :).

Sunday 4th March, 2007

Techniques exist to run away, play defensively, camp an area etc in order to stay alive.
But one point that many seem to be missing is that there is also constantly developing techniques in order to "hunt" more effectively. This include pure technical skills such as moving faster through the map and aiming better, but also more thought out tactics like tricking the enemy to his usual escape route and get there yourself faster, making successful prediction shots, staging perfect attacks on ra/mega etc... the list goes on.

Playing dm2 effectively is still developing among players (as well as dm4 and dm6) despite the age of those maps.

Another aspect is how this "hunt-or-avoid"-situation may even arise in the first place, and this is which player that is dying first - avoid that and the whole "the-one-who-gets-the-first-frag-is-most-likely-to-win" argument falls.

The only somewhat valid argument i can think of wanting to remove dm2 is that respawn slaughter in some cases can decide games. If two high-skilled players meet one another and one of them gets 7-8 spawnfrags as a result of the first frag, and that player does very few or no mistakes from there on, it will be close to impossible to win the map for the player behind because 10 minutes is simply not enough to even it out (even though there is a chance it will be another respawn slaughter, the other way around (which btw we have seen examples of a couple of times in tournament games)). But this dilemma applies to a map such as dm4 too, where some players will get a +15 frag lead in short time simply because the other player doesn’t get a "good respawn" (to be able to get hold of any useful weapon and armor).

I really don't understand why the development of QuakeWorld duels always has to be set towards hectic, +forward games alá aerowalk. Sure, mindblowing tricks, speed and superb aim along with prediction shot is cool to watch, but then the tactical or strategic aspect of the game gets greatly reduced and… then we should ask why we play tournament duels at all? There are game modes to satisfy such needs (midair, dmm4, duel PRACS for fun) etc..

"The big three" maps (dm2, dm4, dm6) was a superb mix when it comes to competition play. dm4 with high pace and where high technical skills pays off, dm6 where timing and strategic play becomes more important, and then there is dm2 - the home of sneakiness and often defensive play, brute force rockets and grenades.

Personally, some of the most exciting duels I have ever seen have been on just dm2.
Close games where the slightest lack of focus from either player may result in total psychological loss. New attacking and defending techniques being discovered or shown to spectator, etc.

Today there seem to be more returning players (who’ve been taking a few years break) willing to give quake another shot, than those completely new to the scene. By removing an old map, such as dm2, those returning players will most likely dislike new maps since they got at least some basic knowledge from before on old maps, meaning they are not so much behind in development as on maps they’ve never seen.

Completely new players will look at it in another way; they are starting at zero on all maps and have to develop equally much on all, thus not having a preconceived notion for any map, old or new.

Sunday 4th March, 2007

ye, i think we have basically summed it up here. i for one favour tb3 but enjoy both aero and ztndm3 in tourney as well. i think running an alternative tourney with only custom maps would be cool, i kinda liked the american compo (what was it? ggl or wtf?) that used a fixed maporder for each week. that way players really need to try all the new maps and they know what maps will be played in their next fixture. in my book, maps like skull, vdm3, rf2 and alike could well make it into such a compo (no slip, there's just no way : that would spice it up a bit.

however, someone really needs to make some new oldskool maps. i know it doesn't seem so hot to design "simple" map-structures etc. but really, too many maps are designed with all the tricks built in and everything made for a set purpose. the old deathmatch-maps are more like "arenas" that weren't so cleverly or purposefully built, gameplay just evolved on them naturally (all of them weren't so suitable of course...).

Monday 5th March, 2007

As author of slip.bsp, I am posting this today to make it clear that I am willing to edit and update slipstream to make it better for dueling.

My email address is if any of you lovely people want to get in touch with me with ideas!

(Also my qw site is :)

Defcon 5
Monday 5th March, 2007

Why do we always forget about Warfare. Its a damn good duel Map.

Monday 5th March, 2007

"why has dag always won dm2, lets look at qhlan games, he won vs griffin the decider twice at qhlan and again vs nabbe!

it cant be luck, its skills.
when he plays, he always plays for winning,"

Everything from election a style of game to win..

Monday 5th March, 2007

I would rather dump dm6 talk about a boring map. dm2 is good that you can be sneaky and use tactics and the map isnt as one sided. dm6 is just all game trying to get the ra what a waste of life

Monday 5th March, 2007

I never play duels so I'm not personally affected by this but I just think someone needs to call people on this bullshit about OMG U JUST HAET TEH DM2 COZ U HAEV NO TACTIX.

The reason people complain about dm2 is not because it's a defensive map or that it required "tactics" (as in dm6 doesn't?). People hate it because it is possible to get the first frag and then camp tele-ya and ra-mega for the rest of the game and have a grerat chance of winning just by that.

That's not an example of "good tactical play". It's effective and thus certainly good from some progaymer pov, but it's something a child can do. You're not the paragon of tactical genius for doing that stuff.

There's nothing wrong with playing defensively, there's just something wrong with a map which gives the defender such a huge advantage as dm2 does.

That said, I'll see you on end.bsp - the only decent duel map ever :E

Monday 5th March, 2007

lib: yes i believe you when you say you think end is the only decent duel map... well if dm2 is so ez to camp, then i challenge you to win ONE round of dm2 against any high profile dm2 player who agrees to let you get first frag... when you fail to do that i will get players who let you take two frags, then three and we'll go on until you win a round.

fact is you won't have a great chance of winning. GAMER has a great chance of winning, INTER has a great chance of winning - but is that really so strange?

so, i am defending a solid dm-map from unwarranted criticism - and i am not being derrogative about tactical skills. you also got the tactical bullshit all backwards - it's not the defender who needs to be tactical ... doh ... it's naturally the attacker. it doesn't take a genius to camp RA or GL on DM6, it isn't hard to stand high on DM4 and dominate with you hot lg either. it's hard to ATTACK.

tourney-players need to learn how to make basic attacks at fixed positions on dm2 - else they deserve to loose to cs.

inertia: i will take some time and see if i can come up with some suggestions. get back to you.

Monday 5th March, 2007

And to think I actually deleted my last paragraph before posting, where I ironically said "countdown 'til someone tries to argue back my questioning my qw skills"

Jesus Christ how fucking retarded do you have to be to think that "Well Gamer would PWN you even if you CS'd dm2!!!!" is a valid argument?

Tuesday 6th March, 2007

Just make some new awezome maps! ;)

Tuesday 6th March, 2007

I agree that the luck-factor can be terribly annoying on dm2 and personally I hate playing tournament duels on it. But it's been part of the QW scene forever and everyone knows it. Plus, like Paradoks already pointed out, it's the only map without shaft.
Also, I don't really see how "first frags can guarantee a win" deserves newsflash-status. I was a little pissed off after my Ownage game vs BPS because he started with a RA spawn on dm4 and I got some shitty spawn like Top-Tele. By the time I got YA or RA for the first time it was something like -2:11. Then when I finally killed him for the first time he spawned RA again. Maybe he would have won this game anyway, but I wasn't granted the possibility to find out.
Does it suck? Yes. Does it annoy you at the time? Yes. Would I wanna remove dm4 from the map-pool because of it? Hell no.
In second-last Duelmania I had to face uiG and he chose dm2. I got a lucky frag at start and then bunkered myself in at RA/MEGA - He was forced to attack and ran into my spam. I was incredibly lucky and eventually won even though he was the far-superior player on that map. Did it suck? Yes. Did it annoy him at the time? Yes. Was it boring for the specs? Yes. Did it make uiG want to remove dm2 from the map-pool? Hell no.

Add more maps to the pool if you like, but keep dm2!

Tuesday 6th March, 2007


yes, that is EXACTLY what i said in my post, really well interprited. i mean do you bother to read what any of the posts here actually say or do you just make presumptions all the time?

i am not questioning your personal qw skills and using it as an argument - i am saying that if dm2 is so unbalanced (as you say it is) then even you (or i for that matter) should win a round by cs against top players given that we get first frags. then i go on to speculate that this will never happen.

what i write about gamer and inter having a great chance of winning is reffering to your own wording in your first post and is not in reference to any theoretical mathcup between you and the champs. so lay off it.

also "Well Gamer would PWN you even if you CS'd dm2!!!!" is not a quote from any of the posts under this article so please stop this presumptious bullshit and either join the constructive debate that we had before you joined in or simply don't bother.

if you still don't get what i am posting to you about, let me clarify with a quote from you:

"I never play duels so I’m not personally affected by this but I just think someone needs to call people on this bullshit about OMG U JUST HAET TEH DM2 COZ U HAEV NO TACTIX."

fact is i don't see who you are directing this charge against, we are discussing dm2 tactics and merits and why players in general don't get enough practice on tourney-style play - you decided that you knew what this was all about and give your two cents and that's fine, but it seems you don't bother to read what's posted not even when it's adressed to you in person.

either that or you want to misinterprit it.

Tuesday 6th March, 2007

ive been playing vdm3 a few times now, and i think its a really great map. pretty small but not as small as dm4. try it out, youll love it :)

Tuesday 6th March, 2007

i will quit quake if you drop dm2 kthxbye

Wednesday 7th March, 2007

Quakebrain: While i certainly exaggerated, i think it's pretty obvious that some of the people here dismiss criticism of dm2 simply by saying "well thats cause you cant play/only do +foward/dont know strategic gameplay.

Submitted for your consideration, a handful of quotes form this thread so far:

"lol defensive play is a part of qw and u can cs on more maps than dm2 and who the fuck wanna play a custom map that a noob have practise and yourself never seen it" (obvious troll/flamebait but certainly proves my point)

"Duel is not only aim, it’s also tactics (whoa?!), so if you like watching +forward games, watch other maps. kthxbai" (in other words, those who dislike dm2 arent interested in tactics, only rushing)

"I don’t understand how anyone could think of removing dm2 from the map-pool of Quake. I doubt one loser’s whine will make it disappear from the QW scene, it’s not going to happen." (i.e. those criticizing dm2 are just sore losers)

As for the whole thing about me taking on Gamer you're hardly taking the high road here by pretending like it wasn't a retarded argument to begin with. I'm not saying anyone can out-CS a good player on dm2. I'm saying when two equally skilled players face off, the one getting the lead and then playing a competent (no need to be brilliant) defensive play has the map won 99% of the time. Either you're intentionally misconstruing my argument or you're really daft for think I'd claim me (a div4-6 player) would beat some div0 superstar on it.

That, and trying to hold my joke about end.bsp being the only good duel map against me. Jessica Christ...

Wednesday 7th March, 2007

slipstream sucks

Wednesday 7th March, 2007

dm2 is qw!

Wednesday 7th March, 2007

lib: yes i hear what you're saying and i hope that those who use the +forward counterargument are just blowing off steam and don't seriously believe that the other dm-maps lack tactics.

there are some major differences between dm2 and the other maps though - especially the lack of lg which makes a big difference in STYLE of play though. i'd like to see more custom maps without lg.

i also simply don't agree that a defender has that big of an advantage as you say, but i do think that defenders win more than they ought to. this isn't because of imbalance imo but because this type of play (cs) isn't waged that often in friendlies and therefore players aren't on par with anti-cs tactics (as you say, it takes less brains to figure out good campspots - and i agree to that).

figuring out and practising good attacking methods takes a lot more effort and that is totally obtainable but something that few players seem to be prioritizing - therefore they these types of tourney games far too easily. sesee could and should have caught gamer in that match - he just wasn't prepared for gamers style of play this time around.

as for end.bsp i truly appologize and will see to it that i put a :E or similar attachement to all my sarcasms in the future so everyone will understand that i'm not an evil flamer ... :E

Thursday 8th March, 2007

You cannot discuss DM2 without mentioning the TGI final Lakermann vs Kane. That is probably one of the most exiting matches i have ever seen on any map. DM2 is a part of Quake, which will never go away or run out of fashion :)

Tuesday 13th March, 2007

personally I dont see why did eizid post this stuff? perhaps coz gamer whined about it after he has beaten seese...ok, then i hate dm4 in duels, why not post "goodbye wave for BadPlace?" dm2 wont be banned from 1on1 so why bother post crap like this?

Åke Vader
Thursday 15th March, 2007

Why not? I think it's great content anyway. :)

Monday 9th April, 2007

Well, dm4&dm2 RULZ YALL. the rest is for lowskilled whining lamers that cant play proper QW. The Aero&ztn introducers should be slapped silly. Day and night.

Thursday 24th July, 2008

has someone contacted inertia on editing slip.bsp?

Tuesday 11th November, 2008

Plz dont remove dm2.

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